Is + Armor or + HP better for HM - Guild Wars Forums

Arianna Swiftwing · Mar 02, 2012, 09:52 PM // 21:52

I am sure this was probably answered a while ago, I did look but was unable to find anything solid.
My main question is simply what is better + Armor for damage mitigation or + HP, this goes for both my character (a warrior) and heroes. I am debating what I should use. I do have several sets of armor so if + armor is better I can switch them out depending on the need.

The other question I have and since I haven't played GW steady for a bit is, a defensive set for heroes, is that just a spear and shield or wand and shield? and if i follow correctly even though the req. for the shield isn't met you get 8 AL from it.
Thanks!

afya · Mar 02, 2012, 10:21 PM // 22:21

both are very good but when you say +armor, which do you mean? +armor is more dependable on your build/play style/area u play, as it requires certain conditions.
Blessed suits dervish & sin pretty well, especially in PVE
The others are more conditional. Plus you're a war that already has high armor, I would recommend survivor for a 24/7 armor set.

I don't give my heroes def set. Actually I just give w/e crap that's leftover, but I don't think 24/7 shield set is good for them. But yea, if you don't meet the req, u get 8AL.
Also these days u have so much defense alone from skills. Shield set on hero is over done imo.

Arianna Swiftwing · Mar 02, 2012, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Good info, for the + armor, less focused on situation + armor and more focused on + armor for a condition that can be met all around an example would be Sentinel's Insignia, +20 AL vs Elemental 13 str req. I plan on vanquishing all areas at some point, and doing at least normal mode, end game areas.
I'll probably try a defense set and see how it works and if not I'll get 20/20 items for my heroes. Thanks for the info

drkn · Mar 03, 2012, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Go +hp for PvE. It makes you less vulnerable to life steal and degen as well, which are pretty common in monster builds.

KZaske · Mar 03, 2012, 09:33 AM // 09:33

There was a post years ago (before Factions even came out) that addressed this very question. They found that a +5 to armor is better than a plus to +30 health. A +30 to health is about equivalant to a +4.7 to health, as there is no +4.7 go with the +5 to armor.

drkn · Mar 03, 2012, 09:57 AM // 09:57

That research only concerned armour-dependant damage. However, armour-ignoring damage, degeneration and life steal are all a-plentiful in the PvE. HP > armour for PvE, armour > HP for PvP.

Iuris · Mar 03, 2012, 11:08 AM // 11:08

Personally, I'd say go for armor.

Nowadays, health degen is practically ignored - a measly 20 HP/sec at worst. The problem part are the huge spikes of damage - and there, armor can decrease the damage taken significantly more.

E N I G M A · Mar 03, 2012, 11:19 AM // 11:19

I prefer armor over health because the way I see it, a full survivor set only offers +40 health, which is like protection for one hit in hard mode, which isn't much. Plus armor on the other hand is like a permanent Shielding Hands on you. Sure, arguments can be made about armor ignoring damage and degen, but I always find my mes heroes can do a pretty good job of shutting them down.

As for hero weapons, it's better to just go with a 40/40 set or even a staff.

enter_the_zone · Mar 03, 2012, 01:02 PM // 13:02

Given that you're a warrior, Save Yourselves is the answer to the armor question... so go with HP.

Mintha Syl · Mar 03, 2012, 07:51 PM // 19:51

The way I see it:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iuris

Personally, I'd say go for armor.

Nowadays, health degen is practically ignored - a measly 20 HP/sec at worst. The problem part are the huge spikes of damage - and there, armor can decrease the damage taken significantly more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by E N I G M A

I prefer armor over health because the way I see it, a full survivor set only offers +40 health, which is like protection for one hit in hard mode, which isn't much. Plus armor on the other hand is like a permanent Shielding Hands on you.

I don't think 30/40 hp can do much difference even with armor ignoring damage, on the other hand even only +5 armor (not to talk about +20) can totally save your life against armor dependant damage.

Chthon · Mar 03, 2012, 09:41 PM // 21:41

In general, +armor mods are better than +hp mods.

To give a little more detail:
The best computable proxy for survivability I've been able to come up with is "before-armor damage it takes to kill you," or BADITTKY (or BADKITTY if you're dyslexic). The idea is to ask: In the absence of any healing or damage mitigation, how much raw damage must the monsters produce to take your lifebar from full to zero?

The equation is going to look like this:
H/(R*(2^((B-A)/40)) + (1 - R)), where

H is your max hp;
R is the decimal representation of the percentage of the monsters' raw damage that is armor-respecting;
B is the monsters' "baseline," where baseline for casters is 3*level and baseline for physicals is mastery*5 - greater_of{0, 3*(mastery - (2+round_down{lvl/2})}; and
A is your armor.

Example:
I am a lvl20 elementalist with max armor, dual 20/20 weapons, a sup vigor rune, a sup fire rune, a minor ES rune, two vitae runes, and a build that includes at least one always-maintained enchantment. The monsters that I care about right now are lvl 26 casters that do 70% armor-respecting damage. Am I better off with Survivor insignias or Blessed insignias?

If I go with Survivor, my BADITTKY would be:
515/(0.7*(2^((78-60)/40)) + (1 - 0.7)) ~= 410

If I go with Blessed, my BADITTKY would be:
475/(0.7*(2^((78-70)/40)) + (1 - 0.7)) ~= 430

So Blessed, in this example, would keep me standing a bit longer -- probably about 2 wand hits or one spell.

End of Example

If you play with different inputs to this equation, you'll see that:

1. Obviously, the percentage of damage that is armor-respecting makes a huge difference on whether health or armor is better.
2. The benefits of extra armor or extra health each scale with how much of the other you already have.
3. Monster baseline makes no difference at all, so you can just set it at 60 for all comparisons. Edit: Monster baseline makes no difference so long as the percentage of armor-respecting damage is invariate. It does matter if you want to make comparisons across different percentages of armor-respecting damage. So, it's best to calculate the correct baseline to avoid making a mistake.

There are things to think about that aren't accounted for by the BADITTKY model. Some of the most notable:

Getting healed. Extra armor multiplies the benefits of healing because every time a hitpoint gets refilled, the monsters have to do extra work to empty it out again. Extra health doesn't have a multiplier like this.
The armor-ignoring wtfpwn. Even in situations where armor does more for your BADITTKY overall, you still die if you don't have enough max health to survive, say, E-Surge spikes. This would be a reason to run more health.
Skills that care about comparative health -- anything with "Victory" or "Envy" in the names, for starters. If you want to use (or stymy) these skills, you may want to manipulate your max hp up or down.
Skills that sacrifice health. You want to manipulate your max hp down.
Aggro concerns. As far as I can tell, monsters look at both hp and armor when picking targets, so I don't believe picking health over armor or vice versa makes you a tastier or less tasty target.
Armor-stacking bugs. It's been reported that armor bonuses from non-inscription, non-insignia, non-shield-base sources get counted against the armor bonus cap when they shouldn't be. (This mostly affects "old school" shields with "armor vs X" mods.)
SY! If you're always teamed with people who maintain SY, you have little need for even more armor.

Quaker · Mar 04, 2012, 02:24 PM // 14:24

More armor = less damage = less health loss. But you have less health to start with.

More health = more damage = more health loss. But you have more health to lose.

It can be argued that it's easier for the healers to keep up with the smaller health loss, but then again, the lower health makes it more important that they do.

It can also be argued that more health helps you survive degen longer, but maybe it doesn't.

Bottom line - it's a toss up - use whichever floats your boat.

And ignore most arguments that involve damage formulas. They very seldom reflect actual in-game results.

Dar Drakor · Mar 05, 2012, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Honestly for most areas (fitting your criteria about just looking to do vanqs and NM missions) it doesn't matter much in the big picture to be worried about it.

I do HM and vanqs all the time and all my heros have some sort of +30 health mod on their weps...and I'm doing just fine. Death, on the occassions it comes (usually because of carelessness...or dozing off), would matter little whether it was +30 health or +5 armor most of the times. If +5 armor might allow me to last a second or two longer...who cares.

No need IMO to be nitpicking here...go with either.

Honestly, every (caster) hero i have follow the same "model" in terms of armor and equipment:

RUNES

major rune in attribute that dominates skill bar (-35 health)
minor rune of vigor (+30 health)
minor rune in primary attribute of 1st class (divine favor, soul reaping, fast casting, etc)
rune of attunement
either another rune of attunement (usually) or another minor rune of a 3rd attribute

INSIGNIAS

for monks - wanderer
for necs (mm) - minion master (with one bloodlaced on hands)
for necs (none mm) - bonelace
for mes - virtuoso
for ele - usually pyromancer
for rit (spirit centric) - shamans

WEPS

all staves with insight head (+5e), +30 wrap, hale and hearty insc (+5e ^50) for the pumped attribute or the primary attribute.

HERO SKILLS/CLASSES

For most areas and missions (HM or NM, doesn't matter) some mix of the following 8 (depending on what I'm playing myself)

3 Necs - 1 as minion bomber, 1 as SS, 1 as healer
2 Rits - 1 as SoS, 1 as SoGM
2 Mes - 1 as Panic, 1 as Psychic Instability/Ineptititude
1 Monk - LoD with Dwanna's Sorrow

In corpse light areas swap out the mm for an ele with SF or another monk with RoJ.

Haven't had a problem realy most anywhere in HM.

Yes, OBVIOUSLY, this isn't ideal for every area but don't need to be ideal. If we were talking UW or FoW or DoA then obviously probably need more time specific but otherwise, no biggy

Arianna Swiftwing · Mar 08, 2012, 03:49 PM // 15:49

I'm thinking of sticking with + health. I am not sure if there are diminishing returns on armor and to what extent it works. If in any case SY will give +100 armor and with the + HP it seems like a balance to reduce both damage and not get spiked down.

I don't know all the math behind it but I also think it matters which piece you put the + armor on for example Survivor +15 health or an armor boots of lets say +5.
Is the armor boost only applied to that piece of armor?
You would need to get hit on the chest piece as the chest has a higher hit chance,it would be more likely but still situational.

Ultimately I think both arguments are valid but a mixture of them is good. I have noticed that since I geared up my heroes their survivability jumped up. It has been a while since I have gotten involved with the numbers and I may be wrong but for now I think it's up to play style until someone can put the numbers down.
Thanks for the responses gave me good feedback.

*missed 1 of the posts with the math oops but 2 wand hits isn't much of a difference and it only takes in equation pure armor or pure survivor good stuff though.

Star_Jewel · Mar 08, 2012, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arianna Swiftwing

Is the armor boost only applied to that piece of armor?

Yes.

It all comes down to personal preference (as evidenced by the responses in this thread). I'll sometimes compromise and put +armor on the chest and legs (since they get hit the most) with Survivors on the rest. Otherwise, it just comes down to what I have. The heroes on my various characters have different set-ups, but survivability is roughly the same. Do what pleases you.

Chthon · Mar 09, 2012, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Star_Jewel

It all comes down to personal preference (as evidenced by the responses in this thread).

The fact that opinions differ does not necessarily mean that a matter "comes down to personal preference"; it can just as easily mean that some people are wrong. By way of example, if you say 2+2=4 and I say 2+2=5, that does not make 2+2=? a matter of personal preference; rather, it makes me an idiot.

Quote:

I'll sometimes compromise and put +armor on the chest and legs (since they get hit the most) with Survivors on the rest.

That is almost never the rational thing to do. The hit ratios and the size of the hp bonuses for survivors are proportional. Whichever is the better choice for the chest is also the better choice for the legs, and vice versa.

The only situation where splitting the difference would be the wisest choice would be if armor was plainly better, but you needed a little more hp to survive armor-ignoring spikes. (And, even then, I'd look at trading 5AL for 30hp on a weapon mod before trading 10AL on 5/8 of your hit areas for 25hp from survivor insignias.)

Quote:

Do what pleases you.

Indeed, people always do anyway.

Star_Jewel · Mar 09, 2012, 07:35 AM // 07:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

The fact that opinions differ does not necessarily mean that a matter "comes down to personal preference";

In this case, it kind of does. We've seen this topic come up a lot, and no consensus has ever been reached about what one "should always use". If all damage in every part of the game was armor-respecting, it would be an easy consensus to reach, but it's not.

And I'm in no way promoting my slap-dash way of modding my heroes' armor -- I'm just making the point that, among my various not-agonized-over setups, my party survivability is just fine. In a full team with good skills, the extra damage mitigation or extra hit points are a non issue.

Quaker · Mar 09, 2012, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Star_Jewel

In a full team with good skills, the extra damage mitigation or extra hit points are a non issue.

QFT. This is the best summary of the situation.
I find that generally speaking, even in HM, if you have a good (not necessarily the best) team with good (not necessarily the best) skills, the minor differences in health or armor level don't make a whole lot of difference. After all, it's not as if we are discussing no armor and all health versus all armor and no health. We are only talking a few points one way or another.

Mar 02, 2012, 09:52 PM // 21:52	#1
Arianna Swiftwing Pre-Searing Cadet Join Date: Dec 2005	Is + Armor or + HP better for HM I am sure this was probably answered a while ago, I did look but was unable to find anything solid. My main question is simply what is better + Armor for damage mitigation or + HP, this goes for both my character (a warrior) and heroes. I am debating what I should use. I do have several sets of armor so if + armor is better I can switch them out depending on the need. The other question I have and since I haven't played GW steady for a bit is, a defensive set for heroes, is that just a spear and shield or wand and shield? and if i follow correctly even though the req. for the shield isn't met you get 8 AL from it. Thanks!

Mar 03, 2012, 09:41 PM // 21:41	#11
Chthon Grotto Attendant Join Date: Apr 2007	In general, +armor mods are better than +hp mods. To give a little more detail: The best computable proxy for survivability I've been able to come up with is "before-armor damage it takes to kill you," or BADITTKY (or BADKITTY if you're dyslexic). The idea is to ask: In the absence of any healing or damage mitigation, how much raw damage must the monsters produce to take your lifebar from full to zero? The equation is going to look like this: H/(R(2^((B-A)/40)) + (1 - R)), where H is your max hp; R is the decimal representation of the percentage of the monsters' raw damage that is armor-respecting; B is the monsters' "baseline," where baseline for casters is 3level and baseline for physicals is mastery5 - greater_of{0, 3(mastery - (2+round_down{lvl/2})}; and A is your armor. Example: I am a lvl20 elementalist with max armor, dual 20/20 weapons, a sup vigor rune, a sup fire rune, a minor ES rune, two vitae runes, and a build that includes at least one always-maintained enchantment. The monsters that I care about right now are lvl 26 casters that do 70% armor-respecting damage. Am I better off with Survivor insignias or Blessed insignias? If I go with Survivor, my BADITTKY would be: 515/(0.7(2^((78-60)/40)) + (1 - 0.7)) ~= 410 If I go with Blessed, my BADITTKY would be: 475/(0.7(2^((78-70)/40)) + (1 - 0.7)) ~= 430 So Blessed, in this example, would keep me standing a bit longer -- probably about 2 wand hits or one spell. End of Example If you play with different inputs to this equation, you'll see that: 1. Obviously, the percentage of damage that is armor-respecting makes a huge difference on whether health or armor is better. 2. The benefits of extra armor or extra health each scale with how much of the other you already have. 3. Monster baseline makes no difference at all, so you can just set it at 60 for all comparisons. Edit: Monster baseline makes no difference so long as the percentage of armor-respecting damage is invariate. It does matter if you want to make comparisons across different percentages of armor-respecting damage. So, it's best to calculate the correct baseline to avoid making a mistake. There are things to think about that aren't accounted for by the BADITTKY model. Some of the most notable: Getting healed. Extra armor multiplies the benefits of healing because every time a hitpoint gets refilled, the monsters have to do extra work to empty it out again. Extra health doesn't have a multiplier like this. The armor-ignoring wtfpwn. Even in situations where armor does more for your BADITTKY overall, you still die if you don't have enough max health to survive, say, E-Surge spikes. This would be a reason to run more health. Skills that care about comparative health -- anything with "Victory" or "Envy" in the names, for starters. If you want to use (or stymy) these skills, you may want to manipulate your max hp up or down. Skills that sacrifice health. You want to manipulate your max hp down. Aggro concerns. As far as I can tell, monsters look at both hp and armor when picking targets, so I don't believe picking health over armor or vice versa makes you a tastier or less tasty target. Armor-stacking bugs. It's been reported that armor bonuses from non-inscription, non-insignia, non-shield-base sources get counted against the armor bonus cap when they shouldn't be. (This mostly affects "old school" shields with "armor vs X" mods.) SY! If you're always teamed with people who maintain SY, you have little need for even more armor. Last edited by Chthon; Mar 04, 2012 at 07:49 AM // 07:49..

Mar 04, 2012, 02:24 PM // 14:24	#12
Quaker Hell's Protector Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Canada Guild: Brothers Disgruntled	More armor = less damage = less health loss. But you have less health to start with. More health = more damage = more health loss. But you have more health to lose. It can be argued that it's easier for the healers to keep up with the smaller health loss, but then again, the lower health makes it more important that they do. It can also be argued that more health helps you survive degen longer, but maybe it doesn't. Bottom line - it's a toss up - use whichever floats your boat. And ignore most arguments that involve damage formulas. They very seldom reflect actual in-game results. Last edited by Quaker; Mar 04, 2012 at 02:32 PM // 14:32..

Mar 08, 2012, 03:49 PM // 15:49	#14
Arianna Swiftwing Pre-Searing Cadet Join Date: Dec 2005	I'm thinking of sticking with + health. I am not sure if there are diminishing returns on armor and to what extent it works. If in any case SY will give +100 armor and with the + HP it seems like a balance to reduce both damage and not get spiked down. I don't know all the math behind it but I also think it matters which piece you put the + armor on for example Survivor +15 health or an armor boots of lets say +5. Is the armor boost only applied to that piece of armor? You would need to get hit on the chest piece as the chest has a higher hit chance,it would be more likely but still situational. Ultimately I think both arguments are valid but a mixture of them is good. I have noticed that since I geared up my heroes their survivability jumped up. It has been a while since I have gotten involved with the numbers and I may be wrong but for now I think it's up to play style until someone can put the numbers down. Thanks for the responses gave me good feedback. missed 1 of the posts with the math oops but 2 wand hits isn't much of a difference and it only takes in equation pure armor or pure survivor good stuff though. Last edited by Arianna Swiftwing; Mar 08, 2012 at 03:52 PM // 15:52..*

Mar 02, 2012, 10:21 PM // 22:21	#2
afya Wilds Pathfinder Join Date: Mar 2006 Profession: Mo/Me	both are very good but when you say +armor, which do you mean? +armor is more dependable on your build/play style/area u play, as it requires certain conditions. Blessed suits dervish & sin pretty well, especially in PVE The others are more conditional. Plus you're a war that already has high armor, I would recommend survivor for a 24/7 armor set. I don't give my heroes def set. Actually I just give w/e crap that's leftover, but I don't think 24/7 shield set is good for them. But yea, if you don't meet the req, u get 8AL. Also these days u have so much defense alone from skills. Shield set on hero is over done imo.

Mar 02, 2012, 11:35 PM // 23:35	#3
Arianna Swiftwing Pre-Searing Cadet Join Date: Dec 2005	Good info, for the + armor, less focused on situation + armor and more focused on + armor for a condition that can be met all around an example would be Sentinel's Insignia, +20 AL vs Elemental 13 str req. I plan on vanquishing all areas at some point, and doing at least normal mode, end game areas. I'll probably try a defense set and see how it works and if not I'll get 20/20 items for my heroes. Thanks for the info

Mar 03, 2012, 06:50 AM // 06:50	#4
drkn Forge Runner Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Wroc??aw, Poland Guild: Midnight Mayhem Profession: Me/	Go +hp for PvE. It makes you less vulnerable to life steal and degen as well, which are pretty common in monster builds.

Mar 03, 2012, 09:33 AM // 09:33	#5
KZaske Jungle Guide Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Boise Idaho Guild: Druids Of Old (DOO) Profession: R/Mo	There was a post years ago (before Factions even came out) that addressed this very question. They found that a +5 to armor is better than a plus to +30 health. A +30 to health is about equivalant to a +4.7 to health, as there is no +4.7 go with the +5 to armor.

Mar 03, 2012, 09:57 AM // 09:57	#6
drkn Forge Runner Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Wroc??aw, Poland Guild: Midnight Mayhem Profession: Me/	That research only concerned armour-dependant damage. However, armour-ignoring damage, degeneration and life steal are all a-plentiful in the PvE. HP > armour for PvE, armour > HP for PvP.

Mar 03, 2012, 11:08 AM // 11:08	#7
Iuris Forge Runner Join Date: Nov 2006 Guild: Crazy ducks from the Forest Profession: W/	Personally, I'd say go for armor. Nowadays, health degen is practically ignored - a measly 20 HP/sec at worst. The problem part are the huge spikes of damage - and there, armor can decrease the damage taken significantly more.

Mar 03, 2012, 11:19 AM // 11:19	#8
E N I G M A Ascalonian Squire Join Date: Jul 2009 Guild: [?????????] Profession: R/	I prefer armor over health because the way I see it, a full survivor set only offers +40 health, which is like protection for one hit in hard mode, which isn't much. Plus armor on the other hand is like a permanent Shielding Hands on you. Sure, arguments can be made about armor ignoring damage and degen, but I always find my mes heroes can do a pretty good job of shutting them down. As for hero weapons, it's better to just go with a 40/40 set or even a staff.

Mar 03, 2012, 01:02 PM // 13:02	#9
enter_the_zone Jungle Guide Join Date: Nov 2007 Profession: R/	Given that you're a warrior, Save Yourselves is the answer to the armor question... so go with HP.

Mar 05, 2012, 05:14 PM // 17:14	#13
Dar Drakor Krytan Explorer Join Date: Aug 2008 Guild: Ancient Dragon Disciples [ADD] Profession: N/A	Honestly for most areas (fitting your criteria about just looking to do vanqs and NM missions) it doesn't matter much in the big picture to be worried about it. I do HM and vanqs all the time and all my heros have some sort of +30 health mod on their weps...and I'm doing just fine. Death, on the occassions it comes (usually because of carelessness...or dozing off), would matter little whether it was +30 health or +5 armor most of the times. If +5 armor might allow me to last a second or two longer...who cares. No need IMO to be nitpicking here...go with either. Honestly, every (caster) hero i have follow the same "model" in terms of armor and equipment: RUNES major rune in attribute that dominates skill bar (-35 health) minor rune of vigor (+30 health) minor rune in primary attribute of 1st class (divine favor, soul reaping, fast casting, etc) rune of attunement either another rune of attunement (usually) or another minor rune of a 3rd attribute INSIGNIAS for monks - wanderer for necs (mm) - minion master (with one bloodlaced on hands) for necs (none mm) - bonelace for mes - virtuoso for ele - usually pyromancer for rit (spirit centric) - shamans WEPS all staves with insight head (+5e), +30 wrap, hale and hearty insc (+5e ^50) for the pumped attribute or the primary attribute. HERO SKILLS/CLASSES For most areas and missions (HM or NM, doesn't matter) some mix of the following 8 (depending on what I'm playing myself) 3 Necs - 1 as minion bomber, 1 as SS, 1 as healer 2 Rits - 1 as SoS, 1 as SoGM 2 Mes - 1 as Panic, 1 as Psychic Instability/Ineptititude 1 Monk - LoD with Dwanna's Sorrow In corpse light areas swap out the mm for an ele with SF or another monk with RoJ. Haven't had a problem realy most anywhere in HM. Yes, OBVIOUSLY, this isn't ideal for every area but don't need to be ideal. If we were talking UW or FoW or DoA then obviously probably need more time specific but otherwise, no biggy